Current world number three, Paul Casey, at the 2009 US PGA Championship practice range at Hazeltine National Golf Club, Minneapolis, Minnesota – www.iseekgolf.com
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Check where Tiger is until waist-high on the downswing and even beyond–and how much the hands separate from the right shoulder early in the downswing. If you don’t, you’re over the top. It’s a myth that the shoulders, arms, and trunk should move forward as a unit on the downswing. They’re moving at the same time, because you have to move shoulders and torso to support the arm swing, but they’re not moving at the same rate, and the shoulders shouldn’t be dragging the arms.
Well I would say that because of the inclination of the spine angle, the shoulders as you say ‘drag’ or rather pull down the arms is a result of the hips and lower body unwinding and pulling down the hands to impact. I believe that there is no independent rate because the unwinding of the hips pulls down the upper torso, shoulders and arms, just like in the backswing the rotation of the shoulders pulls the hips and knees back, and there is no independent rate of hip and knee rotation going back
Continued
Its simply a reaction to the rotation of the body. In case I misinterpreted your point, apologies.
Sorry, make that :43–it’s at the point where the club is not quite to impact yet.
I understand that’s the theory, and it’s quite possible that somebody who’s already learned to swing the arms and club and to release the club from the forearms (and wrists, dep. on various factors) feels that the arms & hands are “passive” on the downswing, that’s it’s all pull and rotation, etc. But in terms of pure physical observation and fact (as opposed to feel), that’s not what’s happening.
In virtually every good player’s swing, the independent swinging of the arms downward starts right at the outset of the downswing or so fractionally thereafter that it’s not possible to have been caused by rotation. You can see this in a DTL view of almost any good player’s swing, where the hands and forearms are moving downward (on plane) independently, away from the right shoulder, right from the start of the downswing much earlier than rotation could have caused.
(part 3–sorry, should’ve labeled part 2, which begins with “In virtually…”):
If you hold the entire upper structure (including arms and club) exactly as it is at the top of the swing, keeping the hands in the exact same relationship to the right shoulder, and then simply rotate, you’ll find that the club has to go outside and on a steep angle down to the ball–the very definition of over the top.
(part 4:)
Don’t misunderstand–I’m not saying the rotation is passive, or that the shoulders don’t add some strength to the motion of the arms. I’m saying that the rotation of the trunk and the movement of the shoulders can’t be the _cause_ of the swinging of the arms and club without a complete distortion of path and plane, and a deterioration of contact. I understand this goes against a lot of current theory, but it’s in agreement with a lot longer-standing theory.
This cat absolutely smashes the ball! watched him at the shell houston open, playing with John Senden and Geoff Ogilvy. On hole 6 Senden hit driver perfect and everybody was ooh and aah; Casey pulls out 3 wood smashes it about a foot next to Senden’s ball. The sound of his impact is unreal!
These vids from the US PGA are great , u can compare all the different swings from the same angles and is really helpful for someone has inexperienced as i am who is trying to coach his son. My boy got onto the practice ground at Turnberry during the Open and chatted wt most of the pros including Mr Casey he was really nice . It really goes to show that no two swings are exactly the same and it is the position of the club at contact with the ball that counts.
clearly paul casey is, and its working for him…. much like it works for me.
You’re wasting your time with these idiots, man, you’re knowledge is way to advanced for their ‘latest craze’ type of minds. You’re right on with what you’re saying….
Good discussion, I like the debunking of some of the “one plane theory.” I wouldn’t really agree with what you say about the shoulder’s being “contained” on the downswing. My favorite swings, where the body mostly controls the release the body rotates hard thru the ball, e.g. Allenby, Harrington, Z. Johnson. The only reason a player has to “hold back the shouders” is if their arm swing isn’t timed properly with the body rotation.
You make really good points about that very subject in your other posts though. If you are going to rotate thru, as opposed to stopping the shoulder turn and flipping the arms over, you have to really get the arms and club out in front of you coming down, and to do that the arms and shoulders can’t move together. A lot of people think this is casting, but if you swing the club on plane, and sequence your body athletically you really can’t cast.
I want to iterate what I think is the alternative. The sequencing and motions are all very similar, except the player doesn’t quite get the arms out in front as much, they retain a lot of angle in their right arm and the club stays cocked much further into the downswing. This power is released right at the ball in the uncocking of the right wrist and arm. The shoulders need to be contained in this style of swing so the face can square up. More powerful, but far less consistent.
Interesting to see the feet movement there. Especially his left foot.
@baka86 thats not that interesting as you think many golfers from the 50s to the 70s lifted the left leg for more power and proper foot working, all you would have to do is to plant that left foot down flat to start your down swing
Whoa, pops up on his toes right before impact. Him and Laura Davies. Must be an English thing. LOL.
Wouldn’t recommend it, but it works for him.
@helenathena thats right but what is interesting is the way it lifts up again at impact
@MrLuigiFercotti For sure! Don’t you just hate having to say “works for him” just to stop people saying to you “Yeah cus your swing is better isn’t it, how many PGA Tour titles have you won”… It obviously works for him, but that doesn’t mean we can’t critique it
@MrLuigiFercotti
Everyone loves to cite the exception.
What people don’t get is that most guys make it tour not because of the technical aspect of their swings, but the great hand-eye coordination, balance and tempo, deft putting, and feel these guys have.
i really like that paul lets his hips turn in the backswing.
a swing a regular golfer can try to emulate.
he needs to keep his right foot down more at impact.
@tjack2themax527 stop giving tips to pros
Hey Asian Golf guy, tjack2themax527 is correct. In the slow motion sequence, Casey is on his toes during these swings. I imagine when Casey saw these swings, he corrected that problem.
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